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«About Curtis Fox Curtis Fox runs a small podcast production company whose main clients are The Poetry Foundation, The New Yorker, and Parents ...»

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The Transom Review

Volume 8/Issue 4

Curtis Fox

September 2008

(Edited by Sydney Lewis)

Intro from Jay Allison

As satisfying as the work can be, it's tough to make a living as an independent producer

in public radio. Producers have traditionally circumvented this problem with Day Jobs,

sometimes capitalizing on public radio skills. That was true with Audiobooks a while

back, and it's true of Podcasts now. Curtis Fox is a Master of Podcasts, and in his

Transom Manifesto, he tells you how he ended up where he is. He'll also tell you about the implications of podcasting's rise on the public radio talent pool. And you can hear Curtis' recent taped presentation at the PRPD. And ask him questions.

About Curtis Fox Curtis Fox runs a small podcast production company whose main clients are The Poetry Foundation, The New Yorker, and Parents Magazine. He comes out of public radio, where he contributed to many shows, including All Things Considered, Studio 360 and On the Media. He worked on staff for a now defunct show called The Next Big Thing, producing radio drama, cultural journalism, interviews and personal essays. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife and two young daughters.

Curtis Fox The Transom Review – Vol.8/ Issue 4 On Podcasting There’s something about the word “manifesto” that demands bold underlined STATEMENTS. And so I will conform my (modest) message to the medium.



I’ve always thought of public radio as a kind of ghetto for producers (and listeners) of reasonably intelligent audio. And things were crowded in our mostly white, mostly upper-middle-class, always well-mannered ghetto. There was little room for new programming, little appetite for experimentation. But things outside the ghetto looked even bleaker; commercial radio was a cultural wasteland.

Just a few years ago, if producers wanted to earn a living outside of public radio, the best option was books-on-tape. Lucrative perhaps, but not always stimulating, especially if you had to slog many hours editing the latest Danielle Steele. (I did.) Besides, a few entrepreneurial producers had sewn up the market.

But then in 2004 new medium opened up a world of new possibilities. With podcasting, magazines, museums, cultural and political organizations, non-profits, and even corporations could now put out their own audio content, directly, without having to work through a traditional media outlet. Here was a medium with no limits! You didn’t need a fortune to buy space on the FM dial. You didn’t have to pad your shows to conform to a broadcasting clock. And screw the FCC, you could say anything! The problem? These organizations did not know how to produce or market effective audio programs. Enter the independent public radio producer.


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Because academia had soured them on it, I figured, and besides, they felt so overwhelmed by the sheer quantity of stuff out there they didn’t know where to start. So what could introduce people to the very real pleasures of an art that I loved? A public radio poetry show.

In New York, energized by the idea of gaining skills I would need to be the producer of that show, I took the traditional path into public radio: an unpaid internship (at WNYC’s Leonard Lopate Show), then paid work (editing Bridges: A Liberal Conservative Dialogue). I started producing history programs independently, did pieces for some national shows like All Things Considered and On the Media, and eventually started working on staff for WNYC’s The Next Big Thing, where along with standard host interviews and cultural journalism I produced comedy, radio drama and audio essays— types of radio that after the demise of that show don’t seem to have found a home anywhere inside the public radio ghetto. Along the way I managed to do some literary and poetry segments, but was gradually disabused of the idea that a poetry show would work on public radio, outside a few local markets. Public radio was in full retreat from educational programming in favor of news and entertainment. But now at least I was skilled producer who could earn a modest living in an honorable profession.

When podcasting came along, I took the skills and values of public radio into the new medium and started producing programs that would never find their way Poetry Foundation onto the schedules of most public radio stations, including several poetry podcasts for the Poetry Foundation.

I originated podcasts for the Jewish cultural website Nextbook.org (which is now ably produced by Julie Subrin, a former colleague at The Next Big Thing), and for Parents Magazine, where some on staff have natural radio talent.

–  –  –

Partly by virtue of being in New York, the center of the magazine industry, and partly because it’s a time when many media organizations, cultural institutions and advocacy groups want to put out their own audio programs, I’ve had my pick of interesting projects, and, after producing a long documentary of Walt Whitman for WNYC, I gradually stopped producing pieces for public radio. Deep down I still consider myself a public radio producer, but my last piece, for Studio 360, went up in early 2006.

–  –  –


Podcasting is an immature medium. It is far easier to flick on the TV or radio than it is to download or subscribe to a podcast, much less find it on your mp3 player. The technology needed by podcast listeners isn’t cheap either, and because they are distributed free podcasting has a ways to go before developing a viable business model.

Many of the most popular podcasts are simply radio programs re-issued as on-demand audio.

Non-broadcast podcasts may be chipping around the edges of broadcast radio, but podcasting is still a niche medium used by a small fraction of audio consumers. As data pipes get fatter, podcasting or some version of it will eventually mature into a mainstream advertising medium that serves up network TV shows and a whole lot more, on demand—TIVO for computers and cell phones.

Ultimately, podcasting is simply another medium to deliver audio and video, and major media companies will dominate it as they now dominate TV, radio, print, and, increasingly, the web. So I’m not somebody who sees podcasting as a revolutionary technology in the media landscape.

For consumers, the real significance of podcasting lies in its role in the general and generational shift away from TVs and radios to computers and cell phones; for producers its significance is the new ability to create content for discrete demographics located anywhere in the world—in other words, to create audiences that currently don’t exist.

Podcasting is the first really effective audiovisual medium that narrowcasts to groups that are not being served by broadcast media—people interested in contemporary poetry, to cite an example relevant to me personally. For independent public radio producers, narrowcasting gives a producer greater freedom to explore subjects without fear of losing a broadcast audience (or station managers) which may tune out when you stray too far from the news or middlebrow entertainment. For the subscribers to Poetry Off the Shelf I can safely assume that they’re already interested in poetry, somewhat knowledgeable about it, and can stay with us for twenty minutes to look at a poem by Sylvia Plath or to hear a range of poems by the new poet laureate Kay Ryan. This simply does not happen on public radio.

(Some podcasts geared to a more general audience may develop a large enough following to be picked up by broadcast radio, as in the case of The Sound of Young America, so podcasting isn’t only Sylvia Plath A narrowcasting medium. It can be the proving ground for new broadcast programs.) Podcasting opens up a market for audio that would never even be contemplated for broadcast.

Businesses that want to talk shop with potential clients are starting podcasts; advocacy groups that want to get their message directly to their members; non-profits that want to

–  –  –

fundraise; political groups and politicians; professional and trade groups; giant corporations that want to reach their far-flung employees.

I don’t pretend to know if podcasting will ultimately undermine the mothership of public radio. I suspect not, given how well public radio podcasts have done on iTunes, and the high quality of most public radio programs in general. But podcasting, with its emphasis on the program itself and not the network or station that produced it, plus the drift toward the greater diversity of the web, do threaten public radio’s franchise business model.

–  –  –


It all depends on the program, of course, but podcast producers like me do pretty much what public radio producers do, plus a host of things unrelated to production. Like radio producers, podcast producers design programs, audition talent, write script, voice, report, record, edit, sound design, pull their hair out, mix. But they also have to come up with budgets and business plans. They have to market podcasts, or at least advise clients on how to get their program noticed. They have to function as audio consultants to the web sites from which their podcasts spring. These last two points are related, because podcasts are unlikely to thrive without a very supportive and heavily trafficked website.

How else will an original podcast get noticed if not for a website that continually trumpets its existence? (Magazines can advertise in their pages, which the New Yorker has done extremely well; they also make the podcasts available as web audio on their website, with links to subscribe on iTunes. Radio stations have the biggest marketing advantage, because they can promote a podcast to an audience that already likes the product; they just have to say, more or less, “Here’s another way to listen to this show, whenever and wherever you want.”)

–  –  –

So the program was designed to address both these audiences with a brief conversational introduction to the story between Deborah Treisman and the guest writer, followed by a straight books-on-tape-style reading, followed by a conversation about the story designed to address both these audiences, with a brief conversational introduction to the story between Deborah Treisman and the guest writer, followed by a straight books-ontape-style reading, followed by a conversation about the the story. Thanks in part to the New Yorker brand and to frequent features on the iTunes store, as well as advertisements in the magazine, the podcast has developed a sizable audience. It doesn’t hurt that the podcast is evergreen. New listeners can always go back and download the entire archive, or cherry pick ones of interest.

In other words, here was a product naturally suited to the medium. (Its only competition is the excellent radio show Selected Shorts, where actors read short stories in front of a live audience. Incidentally, I think Selected Shorts works better as a podcast than a radio show because unlike the radio version you never tune in in the middle of a story and you can always pause to answer the phone without losing the thread.) The Campaign Trail, another New Yorker podcast, is not as suited to the “long-tail” nature of the medium. Information and opinion about the presidential race date so quickly that programs won’t accumulate downloads over time. Last week’s podcast is like last week’s magazine—curious, but you’d rather hear the most recent one.

Competition is also fierce, not only from dozens of political TV shows (think “Shields and Brooks” on the News Hour with Jim Lehrer), but also from print outlets like the New York Times, which also has a political podcast. (The New York Times has a formidable array of podcasts, but production quality is uneven and even their good programs are poorly marketed. If they ever got it together I think they go toe to toe with NPR.) But public interest in the campaign is high, and the New Yorker has some of the best political

–  –  –

journalists writing (Ryan Lizza, Hendrik Hertzberg, George Packer, Elizabeth Kolbert, John Cassidy, David Remnick, as well as executive editor Dorothy Wickenden, who is the program’s remarkably warm and skillful host).

The idea here is not to respond immediately to the onslaught of events in the race, but rather to analyze events from the deeper perspective that these writers and editors bring to the helter-skelter of electoral politics. But the podcast would be quickly irrelevant if it talked about events that the rest of the media has already digested, so production speed is important. We record in the morning and the podcast goes live that afternoon. They have the talent; my job is to direct recordings and do a tight edit and mix that reflect well on the extremely high editorial standards of the magazine. I’ve noticed that many glossy, well-edited magazines have put out amateurish-sounding podcasts that reflect poorly on their staff and their brand. The idea that audio is easy and cheap to produce well is the first assumption I try to put to rest when talking with potential clients.


Yes and no and maybe. I think one of the reasons I get hired is because I can bring a public radio “sound” to a program. But podcasting got its start with amateurs who made it up as they went along, technically as well as creatively, and they have left their mark on what audiences expect out of a podcast. Like blogs, podcasts are often rooted in personal opinion, and there is often little sense, as there is in public radio, that you have to be fair and balanced.

Technical quality and consistency don’t always seem to matter much either; there is much more tolerance in podcasts for inferior audio—SYKPE recordings and the like.

This is not a problem if you are an individual, but for a professional podcast producer different standards apply, according to the client you are producing for. If that client wants to sound like public radio, you have to match public radio technical, aesthetic and editorial standards.

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